Questions: Celestial

[Gaijin Mercenary]

I feel dumb asking this...

Dance of the winds

Battle:Target your unbowed shugenja or Monk; Move a target enemy peep home. If this is the first battle action taken in this battle, negate any effects this turn that move the peep.

If this is the first action played does it negate the initial movement home of the enemy personality or subsequent movements after the resolution of the action?

[Daidoji Ryushi]

If this is the first action played does it negate the initial movement home of the enemy personality or subsequent movements after the resolution of the action?

I don't believe that is how it is suspossed to work, but I'll check on this with one of the rules gurus and get back to you.

If should only negate later attempts to move the personality.

[Moto Gaheris]

dance of the winds really has <Target, Cost, Effect. Effect.>
any further movement (as in back into the battle or other battles), is negated.

[Jadin]

explain this to me, like I am a 5 yr old plz...

http://www.thephoenixclan.com/index.php ... EjcDI2MTE=

[Daidoji Ryushi]

explain this to me, like I am a 5 yr old plz...

http://www.thephoenixclan.com/index.php ... EjcDI2MTE=

LOL.... funny thing was I was discussing this with Brook (MacBeth2001) Cunningham in Crane Clan Chat this morning.... lemme see if i can make sense of it for you....

You have two Phoenix Clan Personalities in play, Asako Serizawa and Isawa Jadin (a 4F/3C Shugenja with 2PH). Isawa Jadin has the Spell, Ritual of Summoning attached to him.

You bow Serizawa for his Open action targeting Jadin. Jadin is now 0F/3C (Base 4F and a -4F Penalty).

Now you pop the Ritual of Summoning for it's Limited action. Jadin is now 5F/5C (Base 4F and a -4F Penalty and a +5F Permanent Bonus).

Your turn ends, and all non-permanent effects wear off. Jadin is now 9F/5C (Base 4F and a +5F Permanent Bonus).

Remember all bonuses and penalties are recalculated every time they are checked. Lets show the same example with two more personalities for further clarification.

You have two Personalities in play, Asako Serizawa and Asahina Ryushi (a 2F/4C Shugenja with 3PH). Asahina Ryushi has the Spell, Ritual of Summoning attached to him.

You bow Serizawa for his Open action targeting Ryushi. Ryushi is now 0F/3C (Base 2F and a -4F Penalty, negative stat reverts to zero).

Now you pop the Ritual of Summoning for it's Limited action. Ryushi is now 5F/5C (Base 2F and a -4F Penalty and a +7F Permanent Bonus).

Your turn ends, and all non-permanent effects wear off. Ryushi is now 9F/5C (Base 2F and a +7F Permanent Bonus).

And again....

You have two Personalities in play, Asako Serizawa and Iuchi Gaheris (a 7F/4C Shugenja with 1PH). Iuchi Gaheris has the Spell, Ritual of Summoning attached to him.

You bow Serizawa for his Open action targeting Gaheris. Gaheris is now 3F/3C (Base 7F and a -4F Penalty).

Now you pop the Ritual of Summoning for it's Limited action. Gaheris is now 5F/5C (Base 7F and a -4F Penalty and a +2F Permanent Bonus).

Your turn ends, and all non-permanent effects wear off. Gaheris is now 9F/5C (Base 7F and a +2F Permanent Bonus).

As you can see, it will always give you 9F when used with one Serizawa... now lets assume you had all three Serizawa out...

You have four Phoenix Clan Personalities in play, x3 Asako Serizawa and x1 Houhou (a 2F/3C Shugenja with 3PH). Houhou has the Spell, Ritual of Summoning attached to him.

You bow all three Serizawa for their Open actions, all targeting Houhou. Houhou is now 0F/3C (Base 2F and a -12F Penalty, negative stat reverts to zero).

Now you pop the Ritual of Summoning for it's Limited action. Houhou is now 5F/5C (Base 2F and a -12F Penalty and a +15F Permanent Bonus).

Your turn ends, and all non-permanent effects wear off. Houhou is now 17F/5C (Base 2F and a +15F Permanent Bonus).

It can get a bit crazy, but it's perfectly legal... just watch out for those Dramatic Assassinations.

[Jadin]

ok thanks, that makes sense.

[Daidoji Ryushi]

ok thanks, that makes sense.

Yeah, it's very counter intuitive, and will probably be revisited by the rules team, but for now, that's how it works.

[Moto Gaheris]

how can a personality be targeted 3x by serizawa and receive -12 f penalty? when a value is hit by a penalty its minimum value is zero. they may overcome the force penalty with force bonuses but they actual value is never less than zero.
i can see one serizawa giving a minus 4f penalty, but if the person he targets originally only had 2 force (printed) then the personalities force is not changed to 4 when the effect wears off. Not to mention the penalty wears off at the end of the round, and the personality's force reverts to its previous state.
using the spell will permanently change a personality's force/chi to 5, but the Serizawa effect does not end and then become a bonus on top of the new stats, acting like a bonus.
What official ruling has there been on this?

[Daidoji Ryushi]

how can a personality be targeted 3x by serizawa and receive -12 f penalty?

All bonuses and penalties are applied and continue to exist until they end. Only if after all bonuses and penalties are added together and a negative number is the result, do you zero out the stat.

http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77162

using the spell will permanently change a personality's force/chi to 5, but the Serizawa effect does not end and then become a bonus on top of the new stats, acting like a bonus.
What official ruling has there been on this?

My explanation a few posts above is the official ruling, as it was explained to me by Brook (MacBeth2001) Cunningham, a member of the CCG Rules Team.

[Moto Gaheris]

great, a broken application. anything else happen like this before? i cant wait for the 15 force cavalry phoenix guy to come storming in. hmm.

[RiedDogg]

If a phoenix player spends enough effort and gold (not to mention luck) to set this up, I can't say as one guy is going to scare me. He may get one or two provinces with his one big guy, but I'll be munching his provinces right back. One guy, easy to kill.

[Jadin]

I had a Nakijima with 14 Force because of this last night, it was very effective. (Ritual of Summoning, then Dance of Flames on the same turn). It doesnt really take a lot of luck or gold. Just one Serizawa and a Cavalry Personality is all you need for 9F, and Ritual of Summoning is only one card if you get as war encampment. That takes most provinces with out issue. There are more ways to boost force in a Phoenix deck (Chasing Osano Wo, Spells that give force pumps)

[Moto Gaheris]

yeah and last nite i was reading upon the lion blitz deck. Its dead.
and scorpion takes too long too long to set up.
looks like 3rd turn Moto chen is the best bet for me. but its no 2nd turn hida kuon.
especially due to jadin having how many cavalry? looks like cavalry is no longer as much a unicorn trait as it used to be.
Duelists need 6 duels per game to make a go of it, and to support that they need focus effect cards, meaning a dueling deck is card draw heavy.
Dishonor deck......ill say no more.
Shadowlands!!! not happening.
Lion defensive honor run. Ok has some potential but cant handle a mirror deck or crane dedicated honor deck.
Think ill rely on unicorn with a heavy dose of attachment destruction.

[RiedDogg]

You worry to much. I only see Hida Kuon 1st turn or not at all.

[Daidoji Ryushi]

Shadowlands!!! not happening.

Don't let my Goblins hear you say that! Just cause I'll have to use a Spider stronghold doesn't mean anything!

But yes, there are a few shake ups with CE, but remember we just went from a fully supported card pool to a very small one.

The decks you have come to love may not be top tier competitive now, but there's 2.5 years ahead to flush them out with.